Re: [心得] 舞伎家的料理人

看板Japandrama (日劇)作者 (雞雞有疤疤)時間3年前 (2023/01/14 23:17), 3年前編輯推噓82(831218)
留言302則, 36人參與, 最新討論串1/2 (看更多)
原文恕刪…mOm 從原貼看來 似乎許多人都蠻在意劇中情節與現實狀況的差異 包括我自己也是 正好今天看到一篇是枝裕和的訪談(英文) 裡頭有段內容 讓我覺得有如是枝裕和對此表達了個人看法 所以轉貼過來 有興趣的板友不妨參考 但我個人英文能力並沒好到可以翻譯 所以就不獻醜了 請見諒 以下…(黃字部分為是枝裕和的回答) From what I understand, there's often a lot of international misunderstanding about Japanese geisha and the historical realities of the tradition. And I believe there is even debate within Japan about just how empowered geisha were, historically, and how the tradition should be perceived in relation to modern feminist ideals. You tell a very sweet and innocent story with this series, but what you said just now about there not being any 16-year-olds working as Makanai in today's geisha houses made me wonder about your views on some of these more complicated questions. The story does follow two 16-year-old girls who drop out of high school to work in this world. And although it's a world of exquisite, highly evolved art forms, it also comes down to young women hosting and serving drinks to much older men. In the process of working on the show, did you develop a view on the proper place of this tradition within Japanese society today? Have you seen all of the episodes? I’ve seen five, so far. Well, I am aware of the fact that people do have opinions on opposite sides of this issue, and not just from my experience of working on this drama. Personally, I feel that it's probably necessary for this tradition to undergo some reform, and some people within this world have told me there are working to do just that. But as you've mentioned, it's also true that there is a lot of misunderstanding regarding geisha and Maiko. When I interviewed one of the Okami-sans, the former house mothers, they told me that a lot of the foreigners who visit them have seen Memoirs of a Geisha and their understanding of geisha have been totally shaped by that film. So they assume all of the girls were sold to the house because of a poor upbringing, or that they are there out of desperation. And my own knowledge of Geisha, basically, had been shaped by Mizoguchi, who told very sad stories back in his day too. But then in real life, when I was doing my research and went to the Hanamachi (a district where Geisha live and work), the people I met there were very enthusiastic about this tradition and it was something that they had actively sought out. They want to preserve this culture and they want it to be accepted, and they are very serious about continuing to reform. All of the houses I had contact with would only accept Maiko if they had the express support of their parents. It really seemed to me that they were taking solid actions and I felt their passion for preserving their tradition and their art form. Personally, I feel that I would like to root for them. Obviously, it's not perfect. But we creators in the entertainment industry, we have been far too late in making our reforms as well. So, I would like to think we could continue to work together in that sense. But when I was developing the show, I did think that introducing this world as a place of pure, dreamlike wonder would be very irresponsible. So I also incorporated some elements into the show that didn't exist in the original story of the manga — as a slight critique. That's why I asked you how much of the show you had seen. For example, I included the character of the daughter who has strong critical opinions about the maiko ways. And I also added Sumire's father, who strongly objects to her wanting to become a maiko. And then I also had the sequence where the Okami-san shares her opinions in reply. So I added these elements to introduce some of the questions that you raise, but ultimately, I tried to leave it to the viewer to form their own judgement. 想看全篇報導的話 在這裡: https://bit.ly/3XiAGXG 原本我對劇版加入原作中沒有的涼子一角略感不解 看完這段訪談 算有得到解釋 但又覺得作用有限 因為我回想了一下 似乎除了一開始對季代和小堇說出那番有如警告的話之外 涼子後來也沒再多批評些什麼? 即使如此 我也能夠體諒 站在劇組的立場 考慮到本劇的屬性 這種事其實點到為止就好 -- ※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc), 來自: 122.117.168.114 (臺灣) ※ 文章網址: https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/Japandrama/M.1673709462.A.E33.html ※ 編輯: ggyo88 (122.117.168.114 臺灣), 01/14/2023 23:20:57

01/14 23:29, 3年前 , 1F
說實話涼子這個角色很特殊 她是在這個屋子裡唯一的外
01/14 23:29, 1F

01/14 23:29, 3年前 , 2F
人 唯一的不是舞伎的人 唯一可以用手機的人 對她來講
01/14 23:29, 2F

01/14 23:29, 3年前 , 3F
是不得已生活在屋形的 其實這個角色我覺得滿妙的 雖然
01/14 23:29, 3F

01/14 23:29, 3年前 , 4F
結果來講作用不大XD
01/14 23:29, 4F

01/14 23:34, 3年前 , 5F
剛看完時真覺得這角色不知道加進來幹嘛:p
01/14 23:34, 5F

01/14 23:35, 3年前 , 6F
她的戲份超少XD 但是我確實有幾段覺得她的存在很妙 那
01/14 23:35, 6F

01/14 23:35, 3年前 , 7F
個外人感很特殊
01/14 23:35, 7F

01/14 23:36, 3年前 , 8F
不過是枝這樣講我覺得還是有點自以為是 他說白了也根
01/14 23:36, 8F

01/14 23:36, 3年前 , 9F
本覺得這個灰色產業(甚至超黑根本不灰)存在是可以被
01/14 23:36, 9F

01/14 23:36, 3年前 , 10F
保護的 但是這種保護充滿了對未成年人的剝削(性也好
01/14 23:36, 10F

01/14 23:36, 3年前 , 11F
勞力也好)
01/14 23:36, 11F

01/14 23:54, 3年前 , 12F
這部是副標黑暗面 16歲開始的幫傭生活
01/14 23:54, 12F

01/14 23:57, 3年前 , 13F
本來想看的但看了板友這兩篇文章完全打消念頭
01/14 23:57, 13F

01/14 23:59, 3年前 , 14F
其實我是真的覺得可以看啦 劇是好劇
01/14 23:59, 14F

01/15 00:00, 3年前 , 15F
可去臉書搜心得文,風向跟此地大不相同,或許會讓你再度
01/15 00:00, 15F

01/15 00:00, 3年前 , 16F
產生興趣…XD
01/15 00:00, 16F

01/15 00:02, 3年前 , 17F
感覺大部分地方還是對這劇好評居多吧 劇是好劇 畫面漂
01/15 00:02, 17F

01/15 00:02, 3年前 , 18F
亮 劇情溫暖 演員們都恰到好處
01/15 00:02, 18F

01/15 00:03, 3年前 , 19F
我也覺得不妨一看,還是有其可取之處。
01/15 00:03, 19F

01/15 00:04, 3年前 , 20F
許多人光是因為是枝裕和或京都就買單了
01/15 00:04, 20F

01/15 03:36, 3年前 , 21F
感謝分享,也一直很好奇是枝自己的理解是什麼。其實原著漫
01/15 03:36, 21F

01/15 03:36, 3年前 , 22F
畫本身就已經是用16歲小廚娘這個設定去表現這個世界是「虛
01/15 03:36, 22F

01/15 03:36, 3年前 , 23F
構」的,影像化如果維持原設定,它本身就會是很奇妙的虛構
01/15 03:36, 23F

01/15 03:36, 3年前 , 24F
和現實的平衡。(除非每集開始都打上大大的「現實中的京都
01/15 03:36, 24F

01/15 03:36, 3年前 , 25F
都是70歲的煮飯婆婆喔」)我自己會覺得原著漫畫,是以料理
01/15 03:36, 25F

01/15 03:36, 3年前 , 26F
少女這個町屋裡的「外人」的角度,去看到舞伎工作裡實際的
01/15 03:36, 26F

01/15 03:36, 3年前 , 27F
「勞動」面向,好的方向想,更多人注意到它是勞動時,也許
01/15 03:36, 27F

01/15 03:36, 3年前 , 28F
更有機會帶動實際工作條件的改善。越是有外人矚目這點,花
01/15 03:36, 28F

01/15 03:36, 3年前 , 29F
街界也就更需要從內部改善自己的體質,而不是以共體時艱的
01/15 03:36, 29F

01/15 03:36, 3年前 , 30F
口號要底下的人忍受糟糕的勞動條件。
01/15 03:36, 30F

01/15 07:27, 3年前 , 31F
是枝裕和也是那個時代的人 想法老派
01/15 07:27, 31F

01/15 07:36, 3年前 , 32F
他比較像想拍,但是覺得照原作拍有點不負責任把慘業拍的太
01/15 07:36, 32F

01/15 07:36, 3年前 , 33F
美了,業界充滿熱情的說法其實有點微妙
01/15 07:36, 33F

01/15 08:42, 3年前 , 34F
不知道原作怎樣,但影集版的藝妓元素其實不算太多,整個抽
01/15 08:42, 34F

01/15 08:42, 3年前 , 35F
掉也不影響架構。重點還是屋形眾女子的故事。
01/15 08:42, 35F

01/15 08:44, 3年前 , 36F
主打人與人的交流,藝妓舞妓的訓練過程也簡化很多
01/15 08:44, 36F

01/15 09:18, 3年前 , 37F
其實剛開始看劇的時候沒想那麼多,看了板上這些討論後,反
01/15 09:18, 37F

01/15 09:19, 3年前 , 38F
而開始好奇:到底他們想要保留的“傳統文話和藝術”是什麼
01/15 09:19, 38F

01/15 09:21, 3年前 , 39F
呢?有人說是舞蹈、服裝跟妝法,但是這些難道沒有辦法用別
01/15 09:21, 39F
還有 223 則推文
01/25 17:32, , 263F
所以應該不是我多心 這片也沒那麼舒服
01/25 17:32, 263F

01/25 17:34, , 264F
題外話 我覺得她們“接近”西方模特兒
01/25 17:34, 264F

01/25 17:35, , 265F
畢竟現在不用強制找旦那(睡的)金主
01/25 17:35, 265F

01/25 17:36, , 266F
藝術性沒否認 但模特兒都常被說虐待童工
01/25 17:36, 266F

01/25 17:36, , 267F
然後多少會有性的問題 但也不是八大
01/25 17:36, 267F

01/25 17:37, , 268F
然後都是用光鮮亮麗掩蓋底薪/血汗
01/25 17:37, 268F

01/25 17:38, , 269F
小女生看了就想穿/進入產業 很正常
01/25 17:38, 269F

01/25 17:39, , 270F
就西方正式模特圈等級 你拿台灣小模比也不一樣(日本:
01/25 17:39, 270F

01/25 17:39, , 271F
北投)
01/25 17:39, 271F

01/25 17:41, , 272F
畢竟舞伎號稱世界上最華麗的生物
01/25 17:41, 272F

01/25 17:42, , 273F
但這是料理人 為對於她煮完沒一起吃飯很不能接受XD
01/25 17:42, 273F

01/25 17:42, , 274F
從媽媽桑到小姐都沒人覺得不對 因為他們是朋友
01/25 17:42, 274F

01/25 17:43, , 275F
這邊反應的就是藝妓回憶錄的階級
01/25 17:43, 275F

01/25 17:44, , 276F
不是真的適合什麼職業就適才所用
01/25 17:44, 276F

01/25 17:45, , 277F
我才看了7集 等看完再看有沒有新發現
01/25 17:45, 277F

01/25 18:04, , 278F
然後藝伎船上跳舞 只給2個客人看那段
01/25 18:04, 278F

01/25 18:04, , 279F
我也是覺得太浪費 小劇場都比較好
01/25 18:04, 279F

01/25 18:05, , 280F
如果妳真的強調藝術 不需要這麼私人/小眾
01/25 18:05, 280F

01/25 18:07, , 281F
客人也應該覺得人多share比較好
01/25 18:07, 281F

01/25 18:08, , 282F
沒有這類想法 改革會很難
01/25 18:08, 282F

01/26 04:37, , 283F
像當藝伎期間不能結婚 也應該改掉
01/26 04:37, 283F

01/26 04:38, , 284F
職業生涯長,對培養也比較划算
01/26 04:38, 284F

01/26 04:39, , 285F
現在女生又老得慢 就算真的注重色相
01/26 04:39, 285F

01/26 04:52, , 286F
維多利亞的秘密門票也很貴
01/26 04:52, 286F

01/26 04:53, , 287F
一定也很多有錢人想追 格調問題
01/26 04:53, 287F

01/26 04:54, , 288F
藝術高格調 對人低格調也是沒有用的
01/26 04:54, 288F

01/26 04:55, , 289F
但日本女權本來就低 怎麼改他們要問專業的
01/26 04:55, 289F

01/26 08:03, , 290F
應該職業化.能結婚.整併置屋轉型成技職學校.媽媽變成經紀
01/26 08:03, 290F

01/26 08:04, , 291F
人.解除舞伎年齡上限,不用滿六年沒襟替就強制退...
01/26 08:04, 291F

01/26 08:06, , 292F
過年時看上七軒大文字記錄片,收大學生當學徒,年紀太大
01/26 08:06, 292F

01/26 08:07, , 293F
不能當舞伎,短暫訓練後匆匆昇藝妓,感覺基礎不穩...
01/26 08:07, 293F

01/26 08:12, , 294F
不如解除上限,從舞伎慢慢歷練上來
01/26 08:12, 294F

01/26 08:14, , 295F
學徒轉型成學生,看是要住校還是住家裡,不用集中住宿
01/26 08:14, 295F

01/26 08:18, , 296F
媽媽當經紀人外兼任老師.導師,帶手下的藝伎舞伎
01/26 08:18, 296F

01/26 08:21, , 297F
各方的關係相當於建教合作
01/26 08:21, 297F

01/26 08:23, , 298F
日本的玩法 人越少的場子越高級
01/26 08:23, 298F

01/26 08:32, , 299F
看完本劇後看紀錄片,總覺得導演有從紀錄片中取材
01/26 08:32, 299F

01/26 08:33, , 300F
大文字勝貴 父親是醫生 高中是運動社團 XD
01/26 08:33, 300F

01/26 08:36, , 301F
部分人設參考勝奈 天賦好 老師肯定 學徒馬上轉見習
01/26 08:36, 301F

01/26 08:56, , 302F
大文字女將對這個行業的定義是"服務業"
01/26 08:56, 302F
文章代碼(AID): #1ZmiUMup (Japandrama)
文章代碼(AID): #1ZmiUMup (Japandrama)